Frosties Vs Magefist

[Alucard]

Until 1.10 i've never really taken the time to think about why people prefer
frostburns to magefist and now that i have i can't see one reason why they
would.
This analysis only applies to sorcessess and only to those sorceressess who
have at least one point in warmth.

Magefist give 1 point to warmth from the +1 to fire skills. This equalls 12%
mana regen. They also provide 25% mana regen. This makes them give a total of
37% mana regen as compared to frostburn which will provide 40% extra base
mana. This means that if you have more than 3% of you mana pool provided by +
mana items/gear then magefist will provide you with More Mana than frostburn.
So not only do magefist provide either more mana or marginally less mana they
also have +1 to all fire skills as well as 25% faster cast.

In the end what on earth do frostburns have going for them? the answer is
that on some non-sorc class casters they will be marginally more effective,
from this i would exclude the necromancer who will get +1 to his corpse
explosion, the fire druid who will get +1 to his entire set of spells and a
fire magezon. Other characters such as a wind druid will usually prefer the
20% faster cast over the extra mana which is not really needed for this
build. Doesn't leave a lot of use for frostburn does it?

[Shiflet]

Post by Alucard
Doesn't leave a lot of use for frostburn does it?

Sure it does. Lots of casters(including elemental druids, hammerdins,
necros, and even many sorcs) can easily hit the second to last breakpoint
without using magefists, so the 20% FCR is absolutely 100% worthless(and a
necro would more likely uses Trang's gloves which also have 20 FCR and +2
curses). And in that case, the mana is more useful(and yes, a wind druid
will want more mana too). My hammerdin uses Frosties, and unless I aim for
the last 125% FCR breakpoint, Magefists are absolutely useless to him-with
his other gear, the 20% FCR will not change his cast rate AT ALL(I actually
have 100% FCR on him, so if I can get a +2 pally ammy with 5+ FCR, magefists
are as useful to him as a cracked sash). And your exclusion was insane-I've
NEVER seen a necro use Magefists for the +1 CE, they either use Trang's for
curses and FCR, or Frosties for mana.

Post by Alucard
--
"Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected us as kids,
we'd all run around in a darkened room munching pills and listening to
repetitive music."

[flame_thrower]

"Alucard" <***@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:***@61.9.191.5...

thats 40% more mana. if you have 200 mana you get 80 more. now lots of
sorcs have more around 500-600 then add frosties and a bahamuts ring or
two.

[Alucard]

Post by flame_thrower
thats 40% more mana. if you have 200 mana you get 80 more. now lots of
sorcs have more around 500-600 then add frosties and a bahamuts ring or
two.

As far as i'm aware bahamut's rings give +mana and on 1.10 the 40% does not
apply to this mana so for example if you have 500 base mana, two rings with
100 mana each and frosties you will get 40% of 500 and the 200 seperate for a
total of 900 mana instead of 980 whereas magefist will provide 37% faster
regen of the 700 mana (with at least one point in warmth). Which, when you
work out actual mana/sec would be better.

[Stephen van Ham]

On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 17:51:46 GMT, Alucard

Post by Alucard
As far as i'm aware bahamut's rings give +mana and on 1.10 the 40% does not
apply to this mana so for example if you have 500 base mana, two rings with
100 mana each and frosties you will get 40% of 500 and the 200 seperate for a
total of 900 mana instead of 980 whereas magefist will provide 37% faster
regen of the 700 mana (with at least one point in warmth). Which, when you
work out actual mana/sec would be better.

This is incorrect. My latest sorceress recently put on a bahamut's
ring (101 mana, in this case). With frosties, this adds 141 mana to
her pool.

I think your reasoning about mana regeneration is flawed as well. As
far as I can recall, all sources of mana regeneration are summed,
whether it be frosties, warmth, etc. This means that, relatively
speaking, once you have a decent level of warmth, the mana
regeneration from magefists is far less than the 37% that you
specified. Consider, for example, the effect of adding 37% further
mana regeneration when you already have +100% (a very realistic sum,
given base level warmth and a few skill adders). The relative
increase is half of 37% - you're going from 2 times normal regen speed
to 2.37 times normal regen speed. Of course, the same thing applies
with items that boost max mana by a percentage, so your analysis needs
to take into account these variables - which gives you best overall
benefit is going to depend on your other gear and skill setup.

[Alucard]

Post by Stephen van Ham
On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 17:51:46 GMT, Alucard

Post by Alucard
As far as i'm aware bahamut's rings give +mana and on 1.10 the 40% does
not apply to this mana so for example if you have 500 base mana, two
rings with 100 mana each and frosties you will get 40% of 500 and the
200 seperate for a total of 900 mana instead of 980 whereas magefist
will provide 37% faster regen of the 700 mana (with at least one point
in warmth). Which, when you work out actual mana/sec would be better.

This is incorrect. My latest sorceress recently put on a bahamut's
ring (101 mana, in this case). With frosties, this adds 141 mana to
her pool.
I think your reasoning about mana regeneration is flawed as well. As
far as I can recall, all sources of mana regeneration are summed,
whether it be frosties, warmth, etc. This means that, relatively
speaking, once you have a decent level of warmth, the mana
regeneration from magefists is far less than the 37% that you
specified. Consider, for example, the effect of adding 37% further
mana regeneration when you already have +100% (a very realistic sum,
given base level warmth and a few skill adders). The relative
increase is half of 37% - you're going from 2 times normal regen speed
to 2.37 times normal regen speed. Of course, the same thing applies
with items that boost max mana by a percentage, so your analysis needs
to take into account these variables - which gives you best overall
benefit is going to depend on your other gear and skill setup.

Finally an intelligent reply :)

[LineNoise]

"Bother!", said Pooh, as he read Alucard's latest post to alt.games.diablo.

Post by Alucard

Post by flame_thrower
thats 40% more mana. if you have 200 mana you get 80 more. now lots of
sorcs have more around 500-600 then add frosties and a bahamuts ring or
two.

As far as i'm aware bahamut's rings give +mana and on 1.10 the 40% does not
apply to this mana so for example if you have 500 base mana, two rings with
100 mana each and frosties you will get 40% of 500 and the 200 seperate for a
total of 900 mana instead of 980 whereas magefist will provide 37% faster
regen of the 700 mana (with at least one point in warmth). Which, when you
work out actual mana/sec would be better.

Frosties works fine with +mana items. It does not work with +energy on
items, nor +mana/clvl items.

If you're *only* looking at regen rate, then your argument almost holds
water. You've failed to account for exisiting points in warmth, though,
which SvH covered pretty well.

The other thing to consider, though, is that Magefist *only* helps with
regen. Magefists give you *at best* 3% less regeneration than Frostburn,
and Frostburn also gives you a larger pool. Which means more casts before
you run dry, and less spillage when you're drinking pots. For any high
mana usage build, I'll take a pair of Frosties over Magefists any day.
Unless I'm desperate for that last frame break. You're practically
guaranteed to have more available mana that way.

LineNoise

[tcells]

Post by Alucard
Until 1.10 i've never really taken the time to think about why people prefer
frostburns to magefist and now that i have i can't see one reason why they
would.
This analysis only applies to sorcessess and only to those sorceressess who
have at least one point in warmth.

snip analysis

the analysis is flawed, but I'm not too certain if its fault was actually
pointed out.

What is important to any man user early on is not mana regeneration, it is
available mana. There is no way a young or even a lot of mid level chars
are going to be able to regenerate mana fast enough to cover what they are
using when they want it ie when they are fighting.

The difference can be as simple as a young sorc using frosties cast 7 orbs
in a row where as with mage fists she might be able to cast 5 or 6 without
waiting for regen to take place.

As the caster gets older, then magefists generally become superior, there's
the obvious fc and fire skills but the less obvious ability to focus more on
killing (PvM) because you can go with less life to avoid MIM.